(12 years at school + 4 years in a university) x 9 months x 20 days x 8 hours per day, is 23040 hours. At the world's average hourly wage of approx. 10$/hour, is $230,400. Now, one would just have to prove that some percentage (e.g., 95%) of that school education was crap and useless, and get back some of that money, just like people do with faulty products asking refunds.

// For example, training a version of Google’s language model (BERT) which underpins the company’s search engine, produced 1,438 pounds of CO2 equivalent in Strubell’s estimate to nearly the same as a round-trip flight between New York City and San Francisco. In practice, a single model is trained a large number of times before it's put in production.

[bobi.rakova], a few more thoughts:

1,438 pounds (=652 kg) of CO2 for Google language model? Training AI models from big data is expensive, but trained once, a model can be reused very cheaply large number of times. Google may re-train the model frequently, so it depends on the frequency, which your comment doesn't mention. Also, it doesn't mention how they are training this model -- if they have something pre-trained already, and training only the top layer, the statistic of expensive entire training would misrepresent the reality of relatively cheap top layer training (transfer learning) on top of the base model. Suggestion: It would be good to mention the total amounts.

In general, because it's expensive to train, but cheap to use, it would be great to have large public model zoo, or model market, so as to prevent people re-training expensive models. I wonder, what's the largest public model zoo that humanity has. Having something like "GitHub" for AI models would also be very liberating to people who have no hardware on which to train large models, but still want to benefit from AI models. I think I had this as a separate idea somewhere.

Thanks for your response [Ruta]! I agree, I think this idea of enironmental justice pushes us to imagine a future where Nature is a stakeholder.

I think it is important to differentiate between AI and technology in general. In my experience, often times, the engineering of an AI model start from the idea of full automation because an AI system can do what people do - faster, cheaper, and better than humans. I think this is why it becomes important to consider the cnsequences as automating away the human introduces new kinds of challenges.

I think it'd be easier to start with the impact assessment of AI models which directly interact with environmental systems as then we could more directly measure the potential impact. Does that make sense?

// Time doesn't have to be productive. We are not insects. [...]
// It doesn't have to make someone rich it just needs to push the envelope.

Yeah, agree with you here, [chronological]. We should not force people to be productive. If they are productive, it should come from their inner drive. The point is, if we want the wonderful futures promised by the good sci-fi, then finding out resources or hidden resourcefulness is important.

// spiral structure inside //

I see! So, I suppose, the bacteria would be the Spirulina (though, it's abundant)? What would those "protected areas of Earth" be?

Those who lived in .su and landed in .us, remember, that:

• capitalism is like evolving bacteria
• communism is like blood-feeding cells

Yes, you can evolve super-bugs through subjecting organisms to challenging conditions, but to ensure reliability, one has to grant social security.

You could have a website where people register their interest to work on a certain day and then random number people are picked. That's for the case there being 50 people wanting to work but only 5 spaces.

It might have to be just in time scheduling so it's always the day before that the schedule gets set. It might be inconvenient. You've got a lot of people chasing a few jobs.

Could have nailbars, landscaping services, bars, restaurants.

// open for direct public engagement, so people can come do some work, unqualified, just by visiting it...?

I like the low barrier of entry in this idea. It reminds me cooperatives (all members share profit) and community gardens (come to work anytime, with no money earned though, just for community bonding).

I guess people would want to do the work without prior training, but would it be enough work for all who want it? Say a coffee shop needs 5 people to serve coffee, then what do other 50 people work as? And what if 10 people want to work at the same time?

Overall, this idea seems to be about people's freedom to create jobs for themselves when they feel like working. So I wonder, what other work could be imagined in such local economies? I think adding a layer of meaning would make this idea stronger. What do people in local communities need? Based on needs various spaces with various jobs could be created. Say, local communities decide they want more beautiful spaces to enjoy nature in their neighbourhoods, so they design gardens and do the planting together, or restablish wilderness parks, or create makerspaces to play with the tools, marketplaces to sell what they make, and so on.

A question comes here on how would people locally self-organise to work on creating these spaces together? So that they could work in these spaces when they feel like it after.

Important. Who would facilitate this conference? It seems to me that scientists and governments would be involved here, but to find a common language they need some good facilitators.

// People run their logs of "Ideas worth NOT spreading" privately.

• How so?

// They .. inform how many of them they have. .. Once the number of potential participants and ideas is large enough, they decide to meet

Why the number is important? How about an estimated damage of an idea instead? Having 100 low-impact ideas to discuss is not the same as 5 high-impact ideas, which may be more urgent and important to look at.

Umm, is this an idea? How this would work? It looks like a question to me. Yeah, and sorry, I'll have to make a feature to easily transform ideas into interests, and the ability for authors to delete the items that have comments, orphaning them. At this point, I guess, you could just create a child interest with parent "Capitalism".

I had an idea for computers to work out how to perform an action based on representations.

So If you have an image it might not be in the right format for a crop code. so you need to convert it to pixels first.

First it would detect the image format is PNG and find a PNG decoder. Then it would find an operation that works on decoded PNG. Such as crop.

https://github.com/samsquire/ideas#11-representational-computing

Like a circuitboard everything in an ecosystem is a dynamical system and in parallel.

This is similar to an idea I had for native libraries.

These are libraries that have JavaScript equivalents that can be transparently replaced with native code without any JavaScript overhead.

Would be useful for game engines, crypto and anything computationally expensive.

https://github.com/samsquire/ideas#51-native-web-libraries

Time doesn't have to be productive. We are not insects. We don't have to work all the time. We need leisure. Most people don't get enough leisure because they're struggling in a capitalist system.

That said our work could be that much more valuable. It doesn't have to make someone rich it just needs to push the envelope.

// AI has consequences much more far-reaching and multi-dimensional than many other technologies. How do we even start to think about the impact of AI on the Environment?

-Hmm, to me it seems we're talking about the same Human impact on the Environment (because Humans create AI to improve lives for themselves). So from here, I invite to zoom out, and add a puzzle on top of this about questioning Human perspective on life in general. When humans see themselves as the centre of the Earth (and probably, the Universe), we create technologies to improve life for ourselves only, e.g. we design say AI to have all knowledge at the click of a button without realising that training AI creates pollution. And then in the design process we further zoom in and divide humans into different stakeholders (like, users, funders, doers, etc) instead of zooming out and having the planet Earth as a stakeholder for example.

So, zooming out here as a thought exercise:

How would the Internet (and any web tech) be designed if we see humans only a specie as part of the living network on Earth and in the Universe? Could we imagine that the planet Earth itself has needs and not only humans do? Could we map out species from the environment as stakeholders in the design process of technologies?

What we could do even here on o2oo: when a new idea is described (before it goes into production), it could share an estimate of the pollution it will create and estimate the impact/value it will produce.

Let's take o2oo system as an example. So by running our website we probably pollute too ([Mindey], maybe you could help me think through this? :), and then we promise to get the humanity connected, so that all new ideas are discussed before they go into production. A promised value (with all stakeholders in mind) would be - that if an idea/project is discussed early, then it can be adjusted, while existing industries are so complex, and are not flexible anymore..

So I wonder how about estimating waste and value/impact for ideas and projects?

Another question is about ethics: Some ideas will promise to create a greater knowledge, even with an expense of creating pollution. What then? How could pollution transform into no-waste (and have a circular model of zero waste)? Say, perhaps when in the ideation process a CO2 emission is projected, then a part of that idea should involve solving that problem in general.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply [Mindey]!

Related to AI's carbon footprint, the best reference I know about is: Strubell, E., Ganesh, A., & McCallum, A. (2019). Energy and policy considerations for deep learning in NLP. https://arxiv.org/abs/1906.02243

For example, training a version of Google’s language model (BERT) which underpins the company’s search engine, produced 1,438 pounds of CO2 equivalent in Strubell’s estimate to nearly the same as a round-trip flight between New York City and San Francisco. In practice, a single model is trained a large number of times before it's put in production.

I should have clariefied that I don't mean AI in general but rather the use of Machine Learning in the development of environmental solutions. A great overview paper related to that is: Rolnick, D., et al. (2019). Tackling climate change with machine learning. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1906.05433.pdf See an interactive version of it here: https://www.climatechange.ai/summaries

For example, AI systems have been used to predict forest carbon sequestration potential through the use of satellite and drone image data; computer vision algorithms are used in identifying appropriate planting sites, monitoring plant health, and analyzing trends; AI is also used to identify where deforestation may have been conducted illegally as well as assess risks due to fire, disease, insects, or other causes. References on all of these uses are available with the paper by Rolnick et al.

I'm interested in data governance models in the case of environmental AI models. For example, in the case of AI used for forest restoration projects:

• what data ownership and data governance frameworks could empower equity and inclusion of indigenous worldviews in the way the technology is used?

• what might be the potential impact of such AI models on the concepts of Ecosystem Services and Services To Ecosystems? Comberti et al. (2015). Ecosystem services or services to ecosystems? Valuing cultivation and reciprocal relationships between humans and ecosystems. Global Environmental Change, 34, 247-262. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378015300145

I edited the post by checking the 'publish' option and I hope I've made it discoverable now, however, I still don't see it on the main Puzzles page.

People decompose and run projects. So, every project is made up of some components. For an arbitrary example, such "parts" could be:

• Content
• Community
• Designs
• Suppliers
• Accounting

These are random categories, but imagine that some project somewhere in the world has teams of people dedicated to take care that these particular components, so that they function reliably. I think that reliably working components are the essence of scalable value to society.

Each different project will usually have very different set of such said "parts" to function and evolve, and if we want to create some new product through a cooperation of a lot of various people, we need to have a way to organize the graph of parts and involvement, so as to be able to credit everyone correctly, and strategize transparently.

So, how this may look like on 0oo? Well, I suppose, initial tree management could be provided under the "Business Details" section in the project settings, using markdown-syntax to describe a tree (for example, HiveCell may have a tree of physical parts (click "Business Details" under it), and teams responsible for each, and 0oo may have microservices and teams responsible for them as parts, and so on.), which we could later parse, and use as classification options for project results and operations.

In summary, the decompositions is something to think about, when thinking of any project. For now, there's just this basic way of doing them using "Business Details" section of project. I'll think how to elaborate on it later on.

Welcome, [bobi.rakova], amazing to have you here, and thank you for sharing the issue questioning the intersection of AI and environment!

// AI has consequences much more far-reaching and multi-dimensional than many other technologies. How do we even start to think about the impact of AI on the Environment?

Indeed, simply the ranking of search results will have non-linear effects to our daily decisions: of policy makers, of businesses, that, because of those decisions shall make different choices. What path driving directions navigator chooses, or what medical procedure search engine returns may entail very different outcomes. Idea: So, perhaps search engines should develop an optional "safe search" feature to display only results that are treated with the same responsibility as financial or medical advice.

You are correctly mentioning carbon footprint of training models, though, I'm not sure how much it is different from carbon footprint of say, mining crypto-currencies. Suggestion: it would be good to add some numbers to substantiate the claim.

However, what does AI have to do with Environmental Justice movement, and Rights of Nature movement? How are they connected with the three issues you mentioned? Question: Could you elaborate on how, say data ownership and data governance affects climate governance? What's the status quo, and how it should be?

P.S. As you've saved the topic before choosing "silently" or "draft", therefore, we got the notification about it, while it is currently not discover-able in the index, it is still accessible via direct URL. So, hope our comments are useful in improving your write up.

// Yes! These jobs don't require much training. Making a coffee for someone is easy. Stacking shelves is easy but hard work.

I see where this is going. Like opening a base? I know what we'll need bases for, there's a fleet of HiveCells that'll arrive for work and a picknick.

So, is it like a factory floor open for direct public engagement, so people can come do some work, unqualified, just by visiting it...? Would one get special coins or tickets for work, that one could spend on the coffee shop and supermarket? Or, is it something different? There would be payments at the end of your shift or at the end of the week if that's cheaper. You'd think exchanging money would be cheap!

Yes! These jobs don't require much training. Making a coffee for someone is easy. Stacking shelves is easy but hard work.

It would be local physical work. There would be people, deliberately not called managers who would provide guidance and simple training.

I wonder if it could be democratically managed.

So, is it like a factory floor open for direct public engagement, so people can come do some work, unqualified, just by visiting it...? Would one get special coins or tickets for work, that one could spend on the coffee shop and supermarket? Or, is it something different?

How would this actually work with varying number of people coming to visit it, and varying work skills? Would these be web-based, or local physical works? How would such place be managed to function properly?

Oh, I see content was substituted, I'll repost my comment under idea :) I see the point, but interesting.

The only reason why people would want to convert work results into money, is to exchange it into something else more valuable at a future time.

[Ruta], yeah "Making" makes more sense, so renamed it to "Making" ;)

// "Distribution" suggests retail distribution of goods into supermarkets. what's the intention of that type?

It's intended for anything that's mean to be scaled -- for example, distribution "content distribution" focused project would possibly want to scale the impact of an art, or "product distribution" would be focused on delivering the made products at scale.

So I have my draft one and here are my learnings!

Draft is about "A Water Cycle as if I’m a Water Drop": playing with a narrative as if I’m a water drop, making sounds, while I travel from the rainy cloud to the house roof, to the soil, to the underground waters, to the house, the human body, toilet and sanitation system, open waters, animal bodies, microplastics, human dish plate.

The purpose is to show how water transforms and unites all bodies (life) on earth. The message is to inspire spectators to think about the impact of their shopping habits and their health, the water health. (Clean freshwater (drinkable water) is disappearing on Earth.)

• RE writing, I'd like to find the right words that express how water sounds depending on its form (rain, tap drop, etc). RE visual presentation, perhaps to include spoken word with those exact sounds of "slurp", "pop pop (rain)", etc.

• RE concept, I had a thought to link water cycle with a creativity process...

Resharing a comment from our voice chat [malü]: Sound samples of a variety of species living in the Oceans could be remixed into a song (just like a musician Pogo remixes samples from movies). This would create an experience of feeling the Ocean creatures (music evokes a feeling!), rather than trying to "understand" the languages of all these various water creatures, which we may never do.

On another hand, it seems to me that humans "read" the languages of other living systems through analysis, by looking for general patterns. What comes to mind is, water waves in different locations can be measured and turned into frequencies, and then into some melodies or data visualisations or symbols (if we go into visual arts direction). Again here, I guess, it's more about exploring and relating to the Oceans through interaction, rather than looking for the exact answer of how Oceans speak.

// how would you ask dolphins about their relationships with water?

Since there is a viable path to learning dolphin language, I think we may just ask in their language, once we learn or develop common language. With a shared spoken language, just like we've posted a question for humans, we could post a question for dolphins.

[Mindey] how would you ask dolphins about their relationships with water? :)

RE types:

[Mindey], I like Making as a type, way more comprehensive than Manufacturing (which suggests big factory manufacturing, which is so far away of how art is made). hmm, Distribution suggests retail distribution of goods into supermarkets. what's the intention of that type? perhaps a more comprehensive one could be created :)

it would be useful somehow organise related Puzzles with potential parents and children, to make it easier to navigate related topics!

Thanks Ruta and Mindey!

I'm going to search about Cymatics and relate to Ocean, i mean Ocean in general, as a body of water and all that's in it.

Definitely want to explore this // the communication links between humans and the intelligence within the oceans...

Thanks for the suggestion of not over-anthropomorphize Oceans! And also for the movie, i'm going to watch it

Your feedback make me have new Qs: Wich / How is the communication system (or systems) that keep balance in Oceans? Are the same systems in Pacific, Atlantic, etc?

This puzzle start because i want to create a series of short talks between Pacific and Atlantic Oceans about climate change and how they are deeply afected, but thats again my antropocentric point of view trying to "put some voice" to the ocean. Any suggestion to avoid this bias is more than welcome!

How is work allocated?

In capitalism, the most desperate people do the work because they are worried about feeding, sheltering themselves and their families. You get a job because the alternative is far worse.

In communism you are forced to work just as you are in capitalism.

// thinking and deciding together

Love this! What about "doing / creating" together, so that a healthy life and healthy society involves a complete process of creativity?

And by "Ocean", you mean -- life forms within the oceans? Or "Ocean" in general, as a body of water and all that's in it? From perspective of information theory and physics, anything that interacts -- communicates. E.g., body skin cells may be communicating with the bone marrow, etc., but we are not saying that it's super important for us to understand that language.

When it comes to oceans, obviously, they have many intelligent forms of life, but similarly, I would presume, that not every communication or language is worth learning -- some processes work best, when they are given freedom to play out without interaction with 3rd parties.

What I would find meaningful -- is the communication links between humans and the intelligence within the oceans...

// Each ocean have their own sounds, "words", tone of voice?

I'd suggest not over-anthropomorphize oceans -- they are full of diverse life, each with their own voice, and language, communications signals, and it's that -- where intelligence resides, not the body, just imagine a dolphin asking -- "Terrestrial Language"? What it could be? Do contitents speak? No -- it's the creatures that live on them speak.

Oh, btw.: I'd suggest watching a movie LIFE BEYOND II, to grasp of the aspects of life. A good movie.

Good point [malü]! How can we relate to water if we don't understand their language? Hmm!

Have you explored Cymatics? (I know little about it myself, but it's about how water changes based on music/ sounds/ vibration/ frequency. So perhaps Oceans could be understood this way?

I think I haven't mentioned, but one of the reasons why I believe such a small space would be sufficient, is because it would work a bit like a bicycle with omni-directional treadmill inside, so people who like to walk around their home, would have that ability.

Perhaps it is best to ask dolphins about it...

// ('ll try to add an ability to add projects directly under questions)

yeah, great idea [Mindey]!

So am I improving on my synthesis? :D see, I updated this idea and added a parent question (with a summary of our idea puzzles!) and a project with my first attempts :) ha!

My thinking went this way, from the oldest to the newest at the bottom:

Water as Cycle

"Concept for art promoting interdependence: Water as a unified malleable library of all life. A cycle of water in our human bodies (based on emotions) impacts industries and thus water ecosystems on Earth. Ocean as a collective consciousness where all ideas meet before they rain on Earth to inhabit human bodies and minds. When it rains, water soaks into my skin and emerges into rivers that travel through my body until ideas form inside the brain. The more pollution, the more acid rain, the bitter the ideas in our minds that lead to polluting products we design and buy. Loop. The more pollution in the Ocean. The bitter rain. .... And backwards. The cleaner the water in the Ocean, the cleaner our ideas (thoughts), the brighter the future."

Water Quality and Emotions

"thinking about an effect of how water I drink shapes my thoughts (currently, experiencing this when swithched to drinking only mineral water, the 12th day now and I feel calmer). also I'd like to show that water impacts emotional state (my water drinking example) and emotional state impacts decisions (what projects are created, what products are consumed). I'm making a generalisation here that water in our bodies makes humans to come up with destructive thoughts/constructive thoughts. the cleaner the water we drink, the cleaner the thoughts we think, the cleaner the industries we create. and the opposite, the more polluted the water, the more destructive the thoughts, the more polluting the industries. here I want to add how negative emotions contribute to destructive thoughts, and thus polluting industries."

"does stress make blood acidic? think positive to turn blood to normal pH or drink alkaline water to clean up. surely I don't know if it's true at all!"

Water as Home

"What is Water to me? "Like feeling home, I can interact with it. Water is home. Intelligence (of past generations), a library that lives in the home.""

Water as a Giant Drop

How cool it would be to create an experience where a spectator enters a giant drop, and feels like inside a cocoon, safe inside a moving water, just like life is, when creativity/imagination creates that cocoon to move through chaos. People would have to step into a water structure (a sculpture-like fountain or immersive virtual experience) to feel calm inside but fluid chaos all around it, which would spark a sense of flow like creativity does.

Water as a Solvent for Society

And then [Mindey] shared how water drops could help to "unclog the humanity" and make up a "solvent for society".

Water as Traveling Drops

Water Drop could bring a sense of connection with water, because a drop can be anything - rain drop, drink, sweat, pee, splash in the sea, soup, ..

Also "drops" in general have a meaning of "about to come out": when it rains, I feel that wisdom is coming; same way when I cry - through emotional expression something wants to come out, i.e. a wisdom of water wants to come out through all of us!

How could these metaphors be explored deeper? Or what other metaphors would spark a sense of connection with water?

// how else to use this space, if not for adding puzzles into same space until an idea evolves from a thought bubble into something more concrete? //

Well, if it's a puzzle, it should belong to questions ('ll try to add an ability to add projects directly under questions) :) And, as you said, "Water as intelligence" is a theme, so, a category, so a question, or rather, an attempt to ask "how should I continue my exploration with this concept that I don't yet quite fleshed out?" (ideas better be fleshed out before posting, so that it's not a question "how would this work?" but an answer "this is how it would work, and here are the details"). I guess I'll need to make it easier to transition the type (i.e., convert content between question/idea/project)...

// perhaps then idea has even children, yay! and projects, yay yay! and various creators in their projects then can answer the details //

Yeah, they could be. :) Looking forward to projects under this theme. ^__^

// However, you didn't describe how this "drop" would be erected in your idea. So, looks like more you trying to brainstorm right here, rather than sharing a verifiable idea.

yes I aim not for verification, but imagining together and cocreating :) it's fun. how else to use this space, if not for adding puzzles into same space until an idea evolves from a thought bubble into something more concrete? perhaps then idea has even children, yay! and projects, yay yay! and various creators in their projects then can answer the details

I like your point on "be a solvent" a lot. yes, Giant Drops being Solvents for Peaceful Society. see? we just connected two puzzles together :)

[chronological], yeah, this is mostly true for remote work, and happening because of communication and transportation technologies... and for that, membership-based organization could be a solution, yes. For example, I'm thinking that we could make the Infinity into an organization that financially supports its members, just because they are members. Think of it like "tax" just in reverse, or a bit like "welfare systems."

For example, countries have enough resources to provide all of the citizens with pretty good health coverage, but why should it stop with health -- what about food, and transportation, and so on. Body cells are given blood for granted, to function, but people are somehow made to die or struggle in competition like bacteria or viruses, which I think is quite inhumane. It's perhaps the most unethical side of capitalism, and obviously, it works -- bacteria get new traits evolved. However, I think there was another topic for that.

Well, companies, big or small, are tools of governments, if registered with them. Usually, large and prosperous companies become such because of trust in management, and represent not a single product, but a number of products and teams being managed, so, they are more like portfolios rather than companies per se.

Now, suppose you want to create a competitor company. That means creating a competing portfolio management.

So, who should we write the check to -- another competing portfolio manager (as that's the level at which they would be financially competing), or you just mean product-wise competition? If product-wise competition, then funding startups already creates pressure to establishment, but that is not generally a financial competition to the establishment, as they are buying up startups, make them part of their management portfolios.

// how cool it would be to create an experience where a spectator enters a giant drop, and feels like inside a cocoon, safe inside a moving water

Yeah, would be pretty cool. That reminds me of the idea of "Black Hole Dome", which is an idea of a method how to create an experience a black hole in the sky. However, you didn't describe how this "drop" would be erected in your idea. So, looks like more you trying to brainstorm right here, rather than sharing a verifiable idea.

// I'd say my idea proposes "being home" and "fluidity" as mental states that we can learn from water

Ah, I see... [Ruta], trying to be sensitive, empathic and "fluid" within society may seem like being that water molecule or a fluid that is a great solvent.

Perhaps the English language attributing two meanings to the word "solve" (1) the meaning of liquifying solids within it, and (2) the meaning of cracking a problem, hints that... the idea is not entirely new (what if not intelligence, is what solves problems?), but perhaps your art could be.

[Mindey] yeah, I love the idea of unclogging! before sleep, I thought about water inside the body: does stress make blood acidic? think positive to turn blood to normal pH or drink alkaline water to clean up. surely I don't know if it's true at all!

then this morning I asked a different question to myself: What is Water to me? "Like feeling home, I can interact with it. Water is home. Intelligence (of past generations), a library that lives in the home."

from here, I remembered that yesterday I was playing with the project names (before I shared this idea here on o2oo) - drops kept coming up, "lasai" in Lithuanian. Drops are an essential metaphor, when it rains, I feel that wisdom is coming; same way when I cry - through emotional expression something wants to come out. I often use "drops" as a metaphor for creativity: idea puzzles are like drops, when many drops come together, there is an ocean: a body of the idea.

then today I thought about drops again, how cool it would be to create an experience where a spectator enters a giant drop, and feels like inside a cocoon, safe inside a moving water, just like life is, when creativity/imagination creates that cocoon to move through chaos. this could be created as a sculpture - step inside a fountain that has a giant drop shape but inside you stay dry, even if it rains all around you. or VR of course could help. but I'm limited with my abilities/time, so I may explore video, audio, storytelling on this theme.

so, following "water as intelligence" theme, I'd like to explore "experience what is it like to be water" theme: "home is safe", and then water travels ("being a grandmother, a mom and a child at the same time").

to answer your last question [Mindey], I'd say my idea proposes "being home" and "fluidity" as mental states that we can learn from water, and with these states, we, humans, would move peacefully through life and interact with one another in a welcoming/caring and fluid way, and thus with such intention we would create a peaceful society (with no pollution, no disadvantage of anyone). it is basically about a core feeling and a core value to reveal in people's hearts, that would stay with them daily, and then shape their decisions.

I think with the data about the volumes (the organs needed, prices at which organs sell, and at which cryonics services are provided) we could quickly reveal the locations of the world, where this approach is realistically viable statistically. If it is, the next step could be devising the procedures protocol, as both events (removal of organs and cryonics) have to happen nearly simultaneously.

// to me personally this idea came when I had a food poisoning and was pushed to change the water I drink

Oh dear, I see. Happy you got away with just water ;) In fact, water, being a good solvent, clears pathways, including metabolic pathways, so, one of the conclusions from https://0oo.li/method/948/shapeflow idea, would be to use a liquid to unclog and clear pathways for shapes to flow.

// interactive experience where spectators have to taste different water

And so, how would the different water taste differently? I don't feel much difference between different brands of bottled water, there definitely are some mineral water brands with higher concentrations of salts, but that's the taste of those salts then, not the water per se. What kind of differences had you yourself noticed, and think that others should too (say, via such art), about the quality of different water?

My question may be a bit inquisitive, because I'm trying to get at the crux of your idea: what course of action do you propose, and how it would work to achieve that impact? (What's the essence of the idea that would make the butterfly effects happen? Why would the butterfly effects happen, given such art is made?)

[Mindey] oh I don't know about the medium yet! when I start a project (start messing around with the concept) then I will know how it's going to look like :) first thoughts were of course, video, audio, spoken word, some digital experience. although to me personally this idea came when I had a food poisoning and was pushed to change the water I drink, so perhaps some sort of interactive experience where spectators have to taste different water (or even go on a mineral water diet), would be interesting

// a unifing point that water makes up our body and water makes up the planet Earth; a point that water is always in motion, throughout our body and throughout the planet; a point that water is intelligence without which life wouldn't exist.

[Ruta], I see. And so, how would these points be made perceivable? Would this piece of art be a statue, a collage, a video (like Jason Silva's), or something else? How would this art work?

True in regards to the amount of rain soaking into skin. And yes that picture came into my mind as a poetic picture.

I was also thinking about an effect of how water I drink shapes my thoughts (currently, experiencing this when swithched to drinking only mineral water, the 12th day now and I feel calmer). So perhaps drinking water vs to rain on skin is a better example that shows interdependence.

// what thing within the concept of "interdependence" would this art aim to make experience-able (that is not experience-able otherwise)

hmm, a unifing point that water makes up our body and water makes up the planet Earth; a point that water is always in motion, throughout our body and throughout the planet; a point that water is intelligence without which life wouldn't exist.

also I'd like to show that water impacts emotional state (my water drinking example) and emotional state impacts decisions (what projects are created, what products are consumed). I'm making a generalisation here that water in our bodies makes humans to come up with destructive thoughts/constructive thoughts. the cleaner the water we drink, the cleaner the thoughts we think, the cleaner the industries we create. and the opposite, the more polluted the water, the more destructive the thoughts, the more polluting the industries. here I want to add how negative emotions contribute to destructive thoughts, and thus polluting industries.

feedback welcome! this is a draft in-doing now :)

// I want to add an art project, it's purpose is societal impact, so perhaps a Type "Society"

Usually, art for social impact is a kind of making (~= manufacturing) and marketing (~=distribution) of perceptions. :) I think, if an art project is about making a new art piece, it could be generalized by renaming the "Manufacturing" category into "Making". Then, Art kind of falls under "Making" If a piece of art is widely distributed (like via a Tweet) to reach social impact, it can even fall under "Distributing" category.