### Conversations

Got to be kidding. This is really an issue, how people can be the first-class systems of the web (web sytizens)? How can individuals be as reliable as large enterprise systems, and as clear, interactive and interoperable as standard-compliant APIs, yet as free as text and binary files?

--Mindey

I think we need a general purpose resource scheduler. An organisation could have one for jobs. Allocates people to teams, to jobs.

It is interesting to consider, that pretty much any application is just an arrangement of related objects of types with modification rules. One could imagine having something like "Application-Independent-Related Objects" (AIRO), that in combination behaves like an application, but are not an application, but rather are free objects with their independent identities and locations in address spaces.

--Mindey

This idea is a bit modified. The original idea was to freeze by pressure alone, because water freezes at +36.5'C under pressure of approx. 1GPa, directly into Ice VI, but this idea was criticized, because the body undergoing such pressure would heat up, and that may cause unwanted chemical changes in the body, even if water stays solid at much higher temperatures with even higher pressures.

--Mindey

// competitors will see who they are buying from //

Competition is a good thing.

Destroying other people who want to do the same thing as you is also destroying competition. And companies hate legitimate competition. They would rather be a monopoly. Monopolies are really inefficient.

I worry with a transparent marketplace, a company would startup and hire people to pick up all the work and give nobody else a chance to pick up the work.

I think society needs to escape this idea as competition as a means of destroying your competition. it's good when there are multiple people offering the same services. So they can compete on price, quality and branding. But this idea of destroying your competition and creating moats is really harmful. We should have a society where people don't fear being made irrelevant.

Yahoo SM (competitor of Google AdWords) was once a transparent market with "allows you to see who you are bidding against and what they are bidding, so you know exactly where you will rank, and how much you will pay". :)

So, what you're proposing, is some kind of open database or aggregation of market orders, right? It definitely relates to your idea of Wantsfiles and Wants Manifestos.

A problem with that is people's privacy: people don't always want their orders be visible due to multiple reasons:

• competitors will see who they are buying from
• ideologically different will despise each others (while they are friendly to each other not knowing)

So, how do you resolve that? Should people have one big open market, where they know that what they share there is public, and then they can have encrypted orders optionally, or how else would you propose?

Think about it -- in fact, every search query is a market order, and I think, "Categories" are "Queries" :) Obviously, Google has been getting lots of queries, and if every "Query" is a category, it has been hierarchically grouping them to fill these search orders (market demand) with link excerpts (market supply).

Thinking that way, we can see that every request-response (or client-server) system can be viewed as order-filling apparatus. Since the cost of fulfilling an order is usually computational-time, and human-time, and machining-time, you could measure the cost of said orders as such. For example:

• ask a friend to a party -> (human-only)
• make a cup with ready dumb coffee machine -> (machine-only)
• buy a product on Amazon -> (computational, human, machine)

It is easy to imagine that, given such open knowledge about world's orders, it would be possible to figure out where to make money, but it is also important to make a distinction between "compute-money" and "human-money" and "machine-money", because human brain (with current BCI capabilities) will never mine the amount of bitcoin that a machine can, and a computer (with current I/O capabilities) will never go for a walk with a friend with intentions to go doing something together, as humans can.

It may be surprising, but most fiat money (call it "human-defined money"), can be made by simply making meaningful friendships, and while Facebook may be trying to fill those orders (with everyone's interaction behavior histories as standing demand orders, and daily feeds trying to fill those orders as supply orders), the most money-making orders is being made within the BS (banking sector, where the fiat money originates) and B2B supply-demand marketplaces.

Imagine if banking sector would have a social network from data like on BoardEx (and from other financio-political databases), and political needs (or "demand orders") of leaders to have certain securities (say "policies") were on the market. I think that would be one of those places with greatest bids, and opportunities in making fiat money. However, indeed, while information about policies is quite open, the downstream orders with specific work demands are less so, because they are often on various B2B marketplaces with less transparency.

--Mindey

Fair enough, that is how most people would think of "making money" -- collecting points.

--Mindey

// Are you assuming that same needs got to be valued at same price? A glass of water in a desert may be worth a lump of gold for a person who is dying out of starvation. //

I should be able to bid an amount I'm willing to pay for a service or product in a marketplace. I should be able to list an item I am willing to sell for. The finance industry makes this very hard to do for arbitrary things. So we need a socialized mechanism for making money. I suspect it would be a phone app with an extremely large marketplace. Every job is distilled to a set of tasks.

There would be no market secrets. I should be able to work out how to make money by looking at the market place and seeing the money I can earn by doing different tasks.

// I propose a marketplace of needs with monetary amounts shared. //

Are you assuming that same needs got to be valued at same price? A glass of water in a desert may be worth a lump of gold for a person who is dying out of starvation.

// Making money is a fiercely guarded secret right now. It doesn't have to be. It could be openly shared to benefit society with competition.

The crazy thing about money, is that it's a medium of economic communication, and making money is essentially, aligning interests and mutual expectations... How does this idea solve the fact that not everyone is equally socially connected?

--Mindey

I presume, by making money, you mean launching a widely recognized new currency?

--Mindey

No, I mean earning money from work or investing.

I'm thinking -- the "A" tag in HTML was meant for referencing -- but most of the time, we do not include a proper semantic relationship, other than link title (but we could, if we had a list of commonly used semantic links). For example, Wikidata P is a list of such link types (they call them properties)...

But then, URL itself as such was meant for referencing, so why shouldn't a URL include semantic link data.

And then, usually URLs are long, if you want to reference things in plain text (rather than hypertext).

These are certainly challenges in cross-referencing.

--Mindey

Like in scientific papers, where claims have references leading to a table of references, and then links to them?

--Mindey

How does I/O become:

10100111011010101010101101101100101011 That all makes me wonder, how does a simple Turing Machine become these 6 things, that we are so common with. Obviously:

• Values: it's the Turing Tape data, or states.
• Types: just common patterns on the Turing Tape.
• Variables: places on Turing Tape.
• Operations: it's what happens when the Clock ticks with read-write places.
• Processes: it's the physical Clocks that make operations happen - the Turing Machine's motors and read/write head.
• Functions: it's 'function' type of variables that store values as possible operations to execute.

It's not hard to see how everything what computer does, clearly breaks down to these things. I would be interested in learning how computer is built entirely out of NAND gates, or how brain is built entirely out of asynchronous neurons, and what insights can we get from the understanding of how these low-level things becomes these 6 concepts, cause I do see these same concepts running societies. Perhaps understanding how information processes become these 6 things, would be help to come up with something (like a form of organization) that's fundamentally new. There are more abstract things, like the equation model, and even more abstract thing like polycontext metasymbol. Is there something like universal additivity, and how can it converge towards the universal good?

It's interesting to observe, that Categories and Types are Questions, Quests and Queries... coincide with Goals, Intents, Problems, Domains, Interests. It means that Queries are Categories: every search query is a category.

--Mindey

Look no further than a DSL for a modern ERPs.

"Resource management is what almost every company is doing, and larger companies use sophisticated resource planning software for that. It is entirely possible to apply machine learning algorithms to automate increasingly many company decisions by analysis of data being collected in such systems, and it seems likely that that some hi-tech companies are already doing that, effectively creating AI-augmented corporations." (me, circa 2010)

Btw., there's one modular framework, called Odoo, written in Python and PostgreSQL, that tries to replace all cloud apps (it's quite amazing). If you replace every module with a business language symbol, you'd get something like what you're talking about. Obviously, such language then can have symbols (or words) with implementations for cloud choices of operators (like what is done via cloud DevOps with cloud services).

Such language obviously would be helpful in understanding any business processes, but not the human relationships and motivations, which usually is the glue that ties processes and restructures those processes. Management relies on personal insights, social measurements, market estimations and risk computations to decide what next domains to pursue next, and that relies on ideas of what's possible, which is inherently an exploratory process. Would such language try to capture these things as well? (human relationships, motivations, exploratory improvizations)

--Inyuki

This is different to my other idea on here which is business cloud.

This idea is about writing a formalization of a business that can be used to describe any business and how it makes money.

I guess you have to begin with where the money comes from (customers) so describing the customers is a must. In JIT business Then you must describe what is done with that money (suppliers consulted) and stock purchased then an invoice is raised and so on.

// You describe that you like cafes.

Ok, that's getting more involved, and considering the data privacy problems to do it while preserving everyone's rights is not a trivial market and AI recommendation task, but obviously, can be done with simple questionnaires, with some homomorphic encryption.

--Mindey

How would it work? I suggest it be used to build a new city:

Put all the housing lots, office lots into a big algorithm for placing people and give people locations that are within 10 minutes away from work office lots. Everybody should get a good position.

The idea of planning people's residences to create serendipity is an interesting one.

You describe that you like cafes.

The algorithm will try place a cafe that is between you and your friend's location so you can meet at that cafe.

So, how would it work? Like groupon, but .... "transferon"? Is it more for coworkers, or for friends? Say, I subscribe to this relocation service, tell about my work and home location, and select a few "dream locations to live" (call it a "base"), and invite my friends do it too, then, do we see options to move, or some kind of long term plan sketches for everyone?

--Mindey

Query planners in database work out how to efficiently execute queries based on how many rows there are and the indexes that need to be consulted. App plans work out how to efficiently work out how to implement apps.

The app planner will consider the following things when retrieving data:

• data that needs to be retrieved to show the interface
• how to structure the queries made to the server - send the query or send a query name?
• transformations of the data before displaying.

How to generate a UI from a data structure:

The database might store the data as a tree, graph or matrix. How to surface this information in a user understandable way? The app planner will use some heuristics to generate UIs with tabs, and lists and rich rendering of items. A bit like django admin screens.

The planner should capture various skills into a computable expert system such as accessibility requirements, create efficient repeatable tasks.

Call them APP PLANS.

App plans contains a list of UI screens.....and the fields of data that is displayed or modifiable on the screen.

App plans also specify the backend integration API to be used with the data that is on the screen. So there would be a call API. and the call API takes a numeric field as input which is the phone number, you can wire up the call API with the field on the screen

Apps should be distilled to query plans. There is a query plan that represents all the queries that an app makes and the relative frequency of each type of query.

People could design all the interactions of an app -- all the screens that show data or allow data to be modified. Then the query planner can generate an efficient app, down to the individual queries used to the layout of data.

Let's let computers layout data for us.

[carolina_carvalho], welcome to site~! ^_^ You can open the flashcards created using Anki: https://apps.ankiweb.net. ;)

--Mindey

I love this! Want to collaborate, still doing a lot of reading on the Earth Language website, because I just discovered it today. Quick question, what should I use to open the flashcards (this format is entirely new to me as well)?

I welcome the idea of greater abstraction, and functionality first mindset, as well as having entire smart phone as a database is nice. I'm sure the current Android APIs already allow something approaching that, but (perhaps) not as simply as querying a database.

Basically, what you want is the transparency of apps with the OS owner identity up to the private methods and storage of the apps, but not with other apps without explicit permission, and not other identities (like that of vendor, who may have installed the OS).

--Inyuki

I'm having an idea in the making... "Debt Document" :) Just linked it here. A lot of times people agree to help for relatively symbolic price (for example, a startup hiring employees, and then not sharing the "lion's share" of it with them), without strings attached. It is not fair indeed.

--Mindey

Well, a definition is useful from the mathematical point of view, is if it provides an equivalence class, in other words, if it provides necessary conditions and sufficient conditions for something to be "it".

Sufficient conditions question: "What do we need to see in it that we would consider it to be 'life'?"

Necessary conditions question: "What are all the things that we can remove from it, so that we still consider it to be 'life', yet removing anything else from it would make it considered not to be 'life'?"

The intersection of sufficient conditions and necessary conditions usually is the defining characteristics, that are essential. So, I'd suggest seeking for them and when looking at someone's characteristics, trying to figure out what are these sufficient and necessary conditions.

Some say that entire Universe had become alive because of us, and we are its eyes. I think this is over-holistification, with some pratical utility (for example, in defining existential risk), but otherwise with little explanatory power to explain what makes 'life' be 'alive'.

--Mindey

One of point of views comes from a system thinker Fritjof Capra. He asks asks "What are the essential characteristics of life at the biological level? What are the defining characteristics of living systems?" and then he points to cells (membrane + metabolism) and Networks and Self-Generation (within a boundary of its own making) as the basic pattern of organization of all living systems."

Hmm.

--Ruta

It seems to me that there may be a variety of Life definitions based on the point of view.

Are we looking from a biological point of view? Physics? Math? Economical point of view? Philosophical? Spiritual dimension?

I'm curious to discuss all such points of views here in this thread.

--Ruta

"Definition of life is based on processes and storing information within physical subtrates." ~ C. Adami

Based on C. Adami video you shared, which is about "life" in the context of technology, I wonder how our relationship to technology change if we see it "alive"? Perhaps we would be more intentional.

--Ruta

I got overview of how Kickstarter works from a friend, so sharing here:

" Having an Audience. Kickstarter is a compressed activity that creates intensity. Kickstarter works the best if a campaign is run for 30 days. How it works is: usually there's a peak at the beginning when loads of people jump in, then a drop in the middle and a peak again at the end of the campaign. (You can lower that middle drop by contacting media outside of Kickstarter.) The first backers ("ambassadors") are essential, because if a campaign is reaching its funding targets fast, Kickstarter's algorithm will promote it as a "featured project" on their platform, and thus more of Kickstarter's audience will see the project. Kickstarter pushes you up based on % of your goal raised."

" Networking. Approaching various groups of people that could be somehow related to your project is essential, so that you find the backers and reach your funding goals. It's like a 3-4 months preparation, interacting with various groups about a shared interest before the campaign."

" Promo Materials. Launch page on Kickstarter is essential. It has to have video, graphics, enough of samples of your work [comics in my case]. What are people investing in? Also a good idea is to release stuff like graphics during the campaign to keep the fans engaged and to encourage them to share on social media."

" Timelines. If you aim to launch on X day, bear in mind that Kickstarter will take 7 days to review your campaign."

" Terms. Kickstarter won't give you the money you raised, if you don't reach your goal. Indiegogo has a different setup."

" Budget. Setting calculated funding goals is key. Because if you fundraise for less than you need to produce and print the book, and if your Kickstarter campaign succeeds, you will have to still produce the work and ship it to backers, and so cover the additional costs yourself. Into budget, you should include printing, but also payments for illustrators and yourself, intellectual property costs. [What if I go creative commons route?] You can have some downloadable graphics for free and then a paid version of the full book."

" Packages. How are you going to offer different options for backing your project? You can have options like a book plus a poster, a chat with the creator and signed book, an early bird price, limited edition, -20% off the final product, and so on. Get creative there."

" Benefactors. Who else could promote your book? Would it suit sustainability organisations as a resource? Museums? Schools? Science educators? To make your Kickstarter successful, can you find one donor that would come at the end of the campaign and back your project with the missing amount, so that you campaign achieves its targets?"

" Manufacturing. Are you going to self-publish? (Pay a printing company to print say 3000 copies of your book?) Or will you use just-in-time publishing? (print on demand based on each order you get) Having a publisher is tricky. How do you prove to a publisher that they will want to publish and market your book? If it's your first book, they will likely would like to see that you got some books sold on your own before you approach them."

" Alternatives. You can also run a crowdfunding campaign on your website, with a set target for orders that you need to use a printing company. When you reach x orders, you will provide an estimate of delivery for your backers."

[My reaction is like "Oh, LOL."]

--Ruta

@ 0oo

I kinda wish to have:

1. Wishlists for projects (that work like backlogs), where people could write the things they'd like to do. Challenges feature is great for sprints and questions, but not that well for writing out things that we're planning to do, or features that we wish to do. That could be realized via "Results" model that already exists, just adding extra property.
2. Custom URLs for topics (so we could give unique URLs to items, including user profiles under username).
3. Multi-master PostgreSQL synchronization between regional sites, with user's own choice what to share to other nodes.

--Mindey

How to decide on a timeline of the book completion? I feel a need to spend time researching topics, and creating an ecosystem around the topic(s) before fundraising...

--Ruta

@ SAME

so far our members come from Lithuania, Argentina, Colombia, US, France, Ireland, UK, Poland, Germany, Mexico, South Africa, Canada, Sakha Republic, Kenya, Brasil

--Ruta

// Balancing Lower-Level System for Cascading Effects in Higher Levels //

Do you mean -- "Bottom-Up" world view -- "To achieve well-being in the higher levels of organization, first balance the lower level of organization?" I guess this idea has been part of Confucian philosophy: i.e., start from yourself, then "the family, the school, the local community, the state, and the kingdom".

I see that you are trying to combining this "bottom-up" world view with the "Living Systems Principles", assuming that they universally make living systems "happy" or harmonious at arbitrary level of organization. So, what are the rest of the principles of "Living Systems" that you had left with the "..." mark, as it seems to be the core of specifics and novelty of this idea (as the "bottom-up" as principle itself is well-known).

Finally, assuming that bacteria are the level of organization that one cares about, how would one apply the principles of "Autopoiesis" and "Synergy" and "Fractals" to make that level be "well" (that would result in the improvement in the levels above)?

Could this idea be summarized as -- "Take the principles of Living Systems, and apply them at the base level of life, and by induction, get the condition of macroscopic and higher order life improve?" Btw., when thinking of well-being of things like bacteria, don't think of them as some kind of benevolent agents, they are varied as personalities, there are species like the necrotizing fasciitis ("piranha bacteria"), that one would not to get near our systems, or, for example mosquitos. We may think we want to be good for everything, but things have to be in the right places at the right times for systems to achieve harmony.

--Mindey

Feature requests for Projects level:

• somehow showcasing results that have "video demos" attached. I'd watch those published by other users for sure for inspiration across disciplines.

--Ruta

Question: When adding a question, and wanting to select some existing questions as parents or children, how to know if a Question is a parent or a child?

Feature requests for adding a Question or Idea:

• a button that communicates a social interaction request between 0oo users (an invite to "be my mirror! help me formulate my question or idea”). this button would help users like me, who love synthesising their thoughts through voice (when talking to someone) and only then writing down a clear description of the question or idea.

--Ruta

Christopher Adami has given this definition of life: "Life is a property of an ensemble of units that share information coded in a physical substrate and which, in the presence of noise, manages to keep its entropy significantly lower than the maximal entropy of the ensemble, on timescales exceeding the "natural" timescale of the decay of the (information-bearing) substrate by many orders of magnitude.". I think it is a rather precise and pragmatic definition of life, worth looking deeper into it, and understanding every the meaning of every word in it. Here is a simulation of life, illustrating the definition: demo.

In the context of a river as the flow of liquid over crevices per se, it is not alive by itself, because its "natural decay" (⇡) is not significantly (not many orders of magnitude ⇡) dependent on it exchanging information with other units. We don't call "Silk Road" alive, just because people use it to move goods through it, and it affects the ecosystem, however, the "Silk Road" (as pathway) may be playing an important role in making something alive, like the Sun (as energy source) does.

--Mindey

[sev], idealistically, yes, that would perhaps be the idea -- a door for something -- "a unique chain of memories?" to walk between these mediums? I have to say, having been through general anesthesia once, I had an "Aha Moment" -- thinking -- "So that's what cryonics should ideally feel like! However, I do feel a bit out of phase: it felt instantaneous -- as if I didn't lose any time, although the surgery took more than an hour: what a weird thing, am I still me with this memory discontinuity?" :) So, I think it is probably the closest to perfect, that the future of cryonics should be able to get to.

If the "unique chain of memories" is what defines one's identity, then I could theoretically imagine that another processing unit, like a brain-CPU, could take on a little journey to derive its further actions from that "unique chain of memories" to append new memories based on those new actions, then suspend that, and write new memories back to my biological brain, and let me resume.

To realize this ideal at this level of mind uploading would require that "brain-CPU" be memories-compliant: i.e., allowing itself be controlled by "unique chain of memories" that defines me, and be neutral and unbiased otherwise.

However, what if what defines me to be me is not "unique chain of memories?" -- but rather, a pseudorandom process coded in the totality of components that make up the brain that, even with a very small epsilon of deviation, chaos-theoretically significantly diverges in the actions it produces diverges from the original? (i.e., it is not IIMT-x-equivalent)

--Mindey

....

--Mindey

The (identity preserving) way I would like to be mind uploaded goes as follows:

Assume we have read/write access to the brain. First my mental state is read. I am then anesthetized. Then my mental state gets booted up in a digital medium. In there I have access to a camera so I can see myself sleep. I then do some first steps in the digital space so i gather some more new memories. With these experiences my digital self goes to sleep and that mind state gets written to my biological mind and booted up again. I now had a continuous experience of going into the digital space and going out of it. I now can repeat that process as often as I like to get comfortable. At some point I might decide to stay in the digital. Or at least when my body is about to break down it is a very calm and familiar experience that preserves my identity and does not resemble death at all.

--sev

// OPERAND and VALUE, i.e., the 5th and 6th merge into one //

Doing that would mean not distinguishing between a "variable" (a place for value) and the "value" (thing itself). So, perhaps it makes sense to stay separate.

--Mindey

// £0 food, £0 medicine, £0 transportation

Bicycles and elevators (lifts) are close to £0 transportation. The other things may take a while.

// whereby everybody who you need to interact with is automatically placed into your life //

But how would one know, who one need to interact with in life? I had one similar idea: One City.

--Mindey

£0 food, £0 medicine, £0 transportation

Will never happen. But I'm open for ideas that make commodities of food, medicine and transportation.

Secretly think transportation is a waste of human effort and people should just live in well managed communities whereby everybody who you need to interact with is automatically placed into your life.

Apparently, the issue was that Tensor veli palatini -- muscle that opens up the Eustachian tube, was a bit over-depressed by earphones, that prevented it from healing at the border of Eustachian tube and tympanic membrane. Simply not using earphones until it heals internally seem to work, but not entirely: it heals, but the clot after healing seem to remain in the Eustachian tube, and not go out. Consciously moving that muscle trying trying to move out what feels like a foreign body in Eustachian tube near eardrum, it scratches the eardrum, producing this kind of sound: [audio] (the right ear emits such a sound recorded with a microphone).

--Mindey

ago @ 0oo

So, I think it would be good to add voice versions of topics and comments, so that someone could simply play entire 0oo stream. The mp3 files could be easily generated with GoogleTTS API, like an audio book. Considering that voice is quite popular, some people may want to listen the conversations here. It's fun that this would have to be done to the versions in all languages.

Additionally, we could add Speech-To-Text (like with otter.ai), so that someone could simply record a comment, and have it transcribed and translated to other languages, generating other language speech versions automatically.