Some would say this is a good trend -- towards the abundance -- so what's next? £0 food, £0 medicine, £0 transportation... Don't you enjoy £0 music? Some would say, cause certain things had been automated, those people who still make them and expect to be paid, should go find other things to do. The problem at the bottom is zero marginal cost, when an extra copy costs close to zero, and the initial copy costs a lot to make. So, the bottom of the question may be -- how do we pay to the artists, musicians, software developers, etc. for the initial copy, that is then spread anonymously? (we do want privacy)

If we could only have all people carry cryptographic keys, forming a set %%S%% of public keys that are verified to belong to living humans, and if those keys could derive signatures of playbacks or views or uses, that are verifyably signed with a key from that set, but cannot be resolved to any particular public key from that set, then -- we could all be signing each of our playback, identifying human use, without the need to solve any captchas and without compromising our privacy, and this could be helpful in giving appropriate credit to the providers. However, when it comes to creators of the initial copy, having a unique "artwork signature" (think like a biosignature) generated from the feature-sets of works of art or engineering, may solve the problem of tracking uniqueness. In fact, such artwork signatures could be hierarchical, as other people derive work from other people, and may serve better than patents.

// a subscript number be used on every sentence to make each sentence referenceable //

So, like hovering on the sentence would actually show that subscript? Btw., multi-lingualism complicates the matters, but it's definitely a great and important feature -- much better than hierarchical comments. After all, each comment can simultaneously be a response to multiple other comments -- it's like a network more than a tree.

// I wonder, if there are some ways to explore this idea together. My MUTANTU comics could link with your game! (Cross-disciplinary partnerships reveal the unexpected links!) //

While not my major project, not a project yet at all, but it's something that makes a lot of sense to me.

// Intestines, Heart, Brain //

Body has so many sub-systems, that it would make sense involving medical experts, and consider using biodigital.com API (yes, the human body navigator has got an "API"). Using its data, creating a 3D game would be much easier, just come up with plots and create. I've contacted people making the BioDigital, they are obviously interested in the uses of their data.

// going through a human body as a game world would be highly educational, that could result in kids gaining confidence in actually doing something about human bodies //

Love this! It's more than that. Gaining empathy towards the Earth starts with empathy towards one's Body.

I wonder, if there are some ways to explore this idea together. My MUTANTU comics could link with your game! (Cross-disciplinary partnerships reveal the unexpected links!)

I like the idea of a human body as a Maze. And each body part like a country with different heroes (organs and bacterias). It'd be cool to travel inside and outside the body (different parts of the skin).

I was thinking, first, to travel the main body parts like Intestines, Heart, Brain.

This train of thought says that the game of "Super Mario" is no different from the game of "Tetris", and no different from human body, and no different from a ball going through a doughnut -- all of them are about shapes going through a hole with obstacles or limitations:

• Super Mario has a shape (the Mario) that goes through valleys and tunnels, until it goes through ("Game Won").
• Tetris has got many "Marios" that fall ever faster, until they clog the hole ("Game Over")
• Human body -- kind of like both, but much more complex maze to go through, from matter ingestion to excretion.

Sure, some holes have loop-backs and all kind of complexities within, making the games more fun, worth playing...

As much as you may think this is an art, going through a human body as a game world would be highly (I mean it: highly) educational, that could result in kids gaining confidence in actually doing something about human bodies. For example, if the game had special extra tools, like what you collect a big mushroom in Super Mario Bros, giving extra powers to move through certain pathways, unclogging congested arteries, and letting grandmother see the world again without flickering eyesight, or getting a super gun, that allows to cut through, or fix certain pathways... That game could be so fun (and educational!) to play. But I should encourage moving to Shapeflow page with further comments, as this topic is more general it seems. ;)

// if we devise a game -- let's call it "Body" -- where this structure that you (as ingested substance (say, game player)) is travelling through, is a human body that is getting sick or clogged over time, and your target, as a substance, is to go successfully through that network of metabolic pathways. //

oh, love it! in my MUTANTU book, the readers comically explore the inside of the body, like blood vessels and intestines (where the action of my comics happens!) :)

I think, the idea of Shapeflow may have great explanatory power and potential for impact, especially, if we devise a game -- let's call it "Body" -- where this structure that you (as ingested substance (say, game player)) is travelling through, is a human body that is getting sick or clogged over time, and your target, as a substance, is to go successfully through that network of metabolic pathways. Kids (or maybe AlphaZeros) playing such games might devise many strategies that we do not know of... and, no cheating, dear AI -- with going through all the necessary parts, where you get extra points -- so, that you wouldn't suddenly convert the gamified human body into a topological doughnut.

I'm exploring Living Systems philosophy lately. So inspired by what makes all life connected like "Air" (we all breathe), "Water" (we are all made of water), "Energy", ... Mixing in breathing sounds would be cool!

Cymatics (how music/vibrations shape water) is fascinating too!

[justinmiyamoto], nice! Lets explore together.

So, for Investors, the value of 0oo is discovery of interesting projects and transparent accounting on how the project budget is spent.

And for Doers, the value of 0oo is finding new ideas, getting community feedback directly, finding cocreators, solving project challenges, selling products on the Market.

Yes, correct.

Right, "Funds" are for accounting only, it's like an investor or purchaser score — to keep track of funds provided.

// Does that Funds number ever go down?

Yes, it goes down, as the transfers are linked with results that have costs.

Here is a little video on that: link. In case of external investors, they are going to be investing, say, dollars, euros, or something else, like machines, or supplies. That all counts as "Funds". Once they put their assets into any of the projects, that appears to them as "Funds provided" in the funds page.

So it is 3 things?

1. Funds appear under Funds when investor makes a money transaction to a project and declare that they made a transfer by clicking Transfer button within a project (actual Transaction does not happen in 0oo)

2. Project members then declare Results with HURS, to "use the Funds" (even if they got actual money already).

3. Then FUNDS for that investor go down to show that projects are "using those funds".

So, FUNDS work like public accounting on how projects are spending money, right?

// If someone tranfers 100$ to me (by clicking Transfer button in one of my projects), does it mean they get my HUR credits?

Yes, their "FUNDS" amount increases by that much (10 blue "funds" by current exchange rate). For the user who transfers you funds, it indicates that they had given that much, and those funds are still available to the users whom they had given them. However, if you, the recipient of funds, would suddenly write a result (+[result]), with say, 50$ costs, and then chose that this result's costs are compensated by the mentioned transfer of funds, then, they would lose their FUNDS value, because that would indicate the consumption of those funds for your result. However, if you don't do that, they might think that they still have their funds with you.

If someone tranfers 100$ to me (by clicking Transfer button in one of my projects), does it mean they get my HUR credits? So 15 credits appear on their profile?

Interested in this topic!

Once I sit down to write down 100 questions that interest me most and I wrote until I had 100 questions. Then, I grouped them into themes and picked the top ten. They guided me in my longterm explorations of topics!

I also did the same exercise for/with a friend changing jobs. Curiosity moment!

I think we can generate questions with word lists and some simple code to randomise the choices.

I worked on two systems to help deciding

one is called fact collector and the other is correlation engine

I have a system called additive guis for generating GUIs where GUIs are composed of statements and form a query. The runtime then generates a GUI based on the query.

I would like a subscript number be used on every sentence to make each sentence referenceable. Perhaps clicking on it creates a quote in the comment box.

// I need to be able to reference a sentence in discussion //

Definitely! Will plan on adding this, cause this would be quite useful in discussions.

I need to be able to reference a sentence in discussion rather than reply to the whole at once.

Perhaps this could be a feature of homebase? A subscript number after every sentence that can be used to refer to the source text.

We need a marketplace of ideas. That's infinity homebase.

Essential question for this project: If creators create (already), why they still don't feel coexistence (peace within)? What principles of Living Systems (spells) would help welcome a deep sense of coexistence into creators lives?

Got great feedback from a mentor on writing (creating blocks of time with no interruptions and inspiring objects), running Kickstarter with a spreadsheet and limiting the amounts of backers for sanity, potential illustrators from Africa and Asia, advice to explore Living Systems science and philosophy videos and chats, so that I could easier spot patterns that would become the spells in the book.

One idea I have is that as a person I have an API and I will do work for you if you call me via this API.

I need people that are good with HTML and CSS.

What can I give? I can create prototype systems. Probably not as pretty as 0oo.li though ;-)

I'm a lazy software engineer.

You can find what I'm capable of on my github profile: https://github.com/samsquire Click repositories, change the type to sources and that's all my things I've made. And my blog is here https://elaeis.cloud-angle.com/

// What can I do and then what can you do for others? //

yes [chronological], I love that! similarly, at SAME community project, we ask members "What can you give?" and "What do you need?".

Talked to a friend about senses. "How come my phone has more sensors than I have?" and "How does a bird see the worm? They see the light, urine." Hmm, I haven't thought about that before, how different animals sense. How can humans reveal this world of non-human senses? Is embodiment of non-human senses even possible for humans?

[Ruta], yes, true, in fact, the purchase for transfer affects ledger and your credit balance. :) While this may look complex, whenever we do a purchase, we can choose how to pay, and can match up another transfer as payment. That other transfer must exist under some project (for example, the project of the company that makes the product) to be able to select it. So, buying something this way, at current stage, is not yet optimized for user experience. While not a priority at this stage (we have other features that are much more used currently, like projects and ideas), but it will become important in later stages.

// A problem with microtransactions is fees. //

Oh yes. Had you heard of Mercatoria by the inventor of Bitcoin? He's currently working on making that cheap, through, what I understand, a structure, -"Inductive Consensus Tree Protocol (ICTP) - for distributed consensus and computation at scale. It achieves high throughput, ∼ $0.0002 transaction costs, and high security while preserving privacy."

It introduces something called "inductive consensus tree" ... "The design decentralizes verification, staking, and storage, and supports tens of millions of transactions per second, with capacity increasing as global bandwidth grows." -- worth looking into it.

I like this idea, though there are other ways -- we could ask shipbuilders to build us a seascraper, and regarding lands, we should try to eventually onboard land providers with their land offers on 0oo.li/products, and then use the market feature to buy it from them for results coownership.

You could do transactions of £100 at a time. And eat the 3% fee on deposit or withdrawal.

A problem with microtransactions is fees.

It costs a lot of money to handle a transaction if you're doing business transactions of money.

I just used my credits to buy one of the products. That means, in my balance, I should see that some credits I already spend?

[justinmiyamoto], your result appears to be either not public, or incorrect. What I'm seeing is this. I suppose, your result is about a UI design or improvements? Try making google drive link publicly visible.

Furthermore, a button "Cashout" next to "P&L" on user profile would complete the journey of "working on ideas in society" by enabling to transfer money from 0oo virtual wallet to an online bank of that user.

Virtual Wallet is something I'd like to explore too at least as a thought process imagining how would it look like on a user experience side (e.g. I click a button and x happens). We could then sketch it on Google Slides, test it with real people (I'm up for it!!) and then make a plan if it's feasable to develop technically in future.

I feel it's useful to enable people to collect money thru 0oo from investors and then transfer that money to their banks, so that they can spend it in a real world today.

How about polishing User Profiles to showcase a "wholeness" of a person and where they are making impact in the world?

I mean, a profile should give a summary of where in the self-actualisation journey an individual is:

• P&L Balance

Showing how much hours they declared and how much they got as an investment. Balance should always be aimed for "0" as equality between input and output. If it shows "-", it is a good indicator that someone from 0oo community simply needs to fund this person, to bring them to balance. On society level, when 0.5 bn people use 0oo, this feature would lift a human race from struggle to abundance and enable working on ideas!

A user profile also should give a summary of what an individual deeply cares about and how they contribute to the collective whole:

• Meta Categories

• Projects, Latest Results

• Ideas

• Questions

I suggest this order because it goes from zoom-out view ("Meta Categories") to zoom-in view (practical stuff like "Projects") and then into a zoom-out view again (a background story like "Ideas and Questions"). This order was brainstormed with [justinmiyamoto].

Overall, profiles would give people hope and confidence in their ability to contribute to the world's course (Projects), showcase links with a global community (Ideas, Questions) and enable people to live on ideas (personal P&L).

I'm really motivated by this Feature and would love to explore together how we could visualise this! Welcome your thoughts :)

Reading an interview with ecologist and writer D.Abram, I loved how he describes everything being alive (sensuous earth) and he talks about words as magic.

Then, a friend mentioned Japanese word "Kotodama" that means "soul of language" and "sacred sound".

I'm curious how I can infuse the magic into words with MUTANTU book..

[justinmiyamoto], well, we have got to have file uploads, ideally we'd provide extra cryptographic proofs of authenticity that way (whatever not provided by links), and it's not as hard, definitely, one of the things to do next. Though, to conform with the style of 0oo, we'd likely only have file previews on mouse hover, as we're focused on helping textual ideas, and want to avoid the distractions as much as possible ;)

For mainstream appeal, I feel like the ability to upload and share images in the posts and comments is a must. But I understand if that's a hard task and if that's not the direction of 0oo.

I've got to mention, that the way 0oo works as a HomeBase, is a bit inspired by my favorite game, called "X-COM: UFO Enemy Unknown", where humans have to manage bases to defend Earth from Alien Invasion with management of resources. So, that's why each project has "Locations" (click image next to "+[Transfer]"), and my old idea of "Goal tracking and resource management" database. :) Anyway, there were really many things in fact, that inspired it. That fun could actually start in real, if we realize this idea that could be like an economic X-COM for good.

Welcome [justinmiyamoto]!

Oh, I have questions too to add to this thread. I see HURS as "everyone declares time they spend on projects, no matter if it was a writer or an engineer, and this way all work is equal". [Mindey], what do you think about that?

But then, what is the value of declaring hours for a creator like me? Can someone come on 0oo and invest into my project directly, so that I don't go to Kickstarter? This is relevant for me now for my book project.

Also, what's the key motivator for investors? Why would they come to 0oo to invest? And is it really an investment or more like a donation?

And what happens during the transaction now? Does money go to my bank somehow?

And what happens with P&L when transaction is made?

Well, asking a question is the first step to clarity :) Thank you for listening to my questions!

Great to hear that, [justinmiyamoto], and I hope you find this place fun to be. We are actually seriously thinking about these problems of economy and money. The precise definition actually is at the bottom of the rates page, and you can the historical fluctuation of all currencies as measured in HUR by downloading our database. ;) Feel free to ask questions if something comes up on mind as you continue to explore~ ^__^

Wow, thank you for commenting so thoroughly Mindey. Makes sense! I'm very excited about the potential of 0oo. I've been thinking about these problems for a long time and I'm so glad someone is working on it. Excited to try some of my projects on here.

Hey [justinmiyamoto], first of all, welcome to the 0oo :)

// For example, if I work for someone for 1 hour, I should be paid 1HUR by the person I worked for.

Was your work okay to be published or mentioned for the world to see? If that is so, this place is for you. Then, you use HUR here only as a unit of measure. For example, if your production or service COST was 50$, you would use the button "+[result]" under a project in question, and write 50$ / HUR = 4.95 HUR under the work result that you declared (or just write 50 USD, and our system will evaluate the HUR equivalent). Note that HUR is not something that is distributed or traded -- it is a unit of value that we show for information purposes, not a currency.

Further, if someone paid you for your costs, and they are okay to publish information about the fact of payment, they can register that fact under project with "+[transfer]" button, and register it. Payment can have the work results matched up, so that they cancel out (for example, if the payment was of 60$, the total ledger value would be 10$ in the end), this way, producing a ledger for the public to see.

What comes out of this activity of creating ledgers of works and transactions under project, is informational, and displayed as community credit and funds above your username. Once we have more projects in the community producing real products, we are considering that this community credit will be useful as a form of currency to make (at least partial) payments for things you can buy on our market section.

// Also, what if I do work that doesn't benefit someone who works like a baby?

You can declare hours by registering expenses for whatever you did, in public here, and that will add in to your "credit score" on this community.

I hope this explanation is understandable. Does it make sense to you? You can always take a look at fluctuating value of HUR at 0oo.li/rate.

Fantastic updates coming soon :)

A feature to mark solved or archived Challenges would be useful. I don't like deleting because it's valuable to see that there was a Challenge and now it's solved or not relevant anymore.

Some comments, those that are responses to challenges, may appear in different color, and be showable under those challenges, cause that part works a bit like quora? I think, we should also make an option then for the resolved issues to disappear from the home page.

Ask yourself What can I do and then what can you do for others?